Overtraining

[Melas Zomos]

I almost hesitate to reply to this post, especially after reading the “so your think your tough” thread.

However, it is clear to me that most of the Spartans on this board understand the difference between real over-training, as opposed to the perceived over-training the supplement/magazine industry interjects us with, so I will come out and say that currently I am in a state of being over-trained. As a trainer I can recognize it easily in others, however as an athlete I view it more as a weakness and thus:

One thing I do find (for me) is that if I am heading into a state of over-training / over reaching I will in fact train even harder & make the effects & end result appear much sooner. A lot of other people I have seen fall into that very same situation.

This is just something most competitive athletes do, and without a trainer guiding you and forcing you to stay on the designated path an overly competitive person will in fact do what Cookie stated (man I really hate that screen name bro, lol) As also mentioned it usually leads to injury, which in return forces a reduction in workload and thus the body slowly recovers.
In my case the overtraining has been building over a period of a few months. The main catalyst to my overtraining station appears to be sleep, and more specifically my mattress. This finally became noticeable the other week when I woke up with a very stiff back. Initially I wrote it off as swimming the night before, or my wrestling match that weekend, however nothing was injured so to speak and my chiro confirmed this. Since I have done numerous tests and believe the mattress is the main culprit. I tried to prove this otherwise as my mattress is only 2-3yrs old and I had gone through 2 mattresses within the year before that, but all signs are pointing in that direction.

However, I would like to note that this was not the only catalyst. Recently I have taken to doing beta testing with a few fat loss stimulants. This too I am suspecting was another contributing factor, one I need to do more research on. Adding a stimulant to an already exhaustive cns workout may hasten the effects of overtraining so in essence:

Another issue I find so prevalent within the training contingent these days is overuse of "supplements" that are used to fire up an individuals "drive~focus" leading up to a workout. We have all found that a cup of black gold (coffee) works yet these products seem to take it to a near chemical level & in my honest opinion~experience are at times counter productive. Occasional use I have no problem with especially on those days when your not feeling 100% up for the workout or following a hard day at work. But what I have seen is that occasional use almost always goes to "constant" use & the body~individual cannot function without them. The other negative seems to be that these "supplements" have a tendency to push the trainee far beyond their normal training capacity but worse of all "beyond their actual recovery abilities". If this continues over a prolonged amount of time a "supplement" which was designed to help an individual break down barriers becomes the very thing that stops them from reaching & breaching those barriers.

As someone once said to me "you can put a Ferrari engine into a mini but eventually it`ll shake itself to bits" & that is something I think that continual use of these products does.

This too has merit. I would like to do more research on this while also looking at its effects on the adrenal glands.
Before this beta testing, caffeine (tea) was my only stimulant and though I probably had mattress issues then too, over-training was not an issue despite an immense and intense workload. So this too has merit and is worth looking into.

Currently I am researching mattresses and attacking that end first. I am researching foam, water, air, and combinations of those mentioned. I am also increasing my calories and bcaa’s to aid in recovery.
Very good info in this thread, and worth continuing.

[samurai69]

Melas Zomos, what bodyweight are you at, the best matress i had, was one that was made specially for me at my weight at the time............of course if weight fluctuates too much its no good. Wife and i had effectively 2 separate mattresses that zipped together.............thay actually took in to account your main sleeping position and padded it out accordingly..........very expensive but worked great, had the bed for nearly 10 years with no problems *maybe a little towards the end)


interesting article you wrote re overtraining, especially the sleep bit



.

[Al]

...

[Cookie]

I almost hesitate to reply to this post, especially after reading the “so your think your tough” thread.

Good read eh I recommend the book highly

However, it is clear to me that most of the Spartans on this board understand the difference between real over-training, as opposed to the perceived over-training the supplement/magazine industry interjects us with, so I will come out and say that currently I am in a state of being over-trained. As a trainer I can recognize it easily in others, however as an athlete I view it more as a weakness and thus:

I can see it in others a lot sooner than myself also.. but I think that`s just a normal human tendency & a lot of us fall into the trap of not practising what we preach.

One thing I do find (for me) is that if I am heading into a state of over-training / over reaching I will in fact train even harder & make the effects & end result appear much sooner. A lot of other people I have seen fall into that very same situation.

This is just something most competitive athletes do, and without a trainer guiding you and forcing you to stay on the designated path an overly competitive person will in fact do what Cookie stated (man I really hate that screen name bro, lol) An internet name I`ve had over a decade

As also mentioned it usually leads to injury, which in return forces a reduction in workload and thus the body slowly recovers.

This is why I like to work in de-loading periods of if it has been a very heavy program I`ve followed a complete 7-10 rest so my body & its systems can settle down, adapt & be ready for another challenge. So many people in gyms just cannot do that, its seen as a sign of weakness.

In my case the overtraining has been building over a period of a few months. The main catalyst to my overtraining station appears to be sleep, and more specifically my mattress. This finally became noticeable the other week when I woke up with a very stiff back. Initially I wrote it off as swimming the night before, or my wrestling match that weekend, however nothing was injured so to speak and my chiro confirmed this. Since I have done numerous tests and believe the mattress is the main culprit. I tried to prove this otherwise as my mattress is only 2-3yrs old and I had gone through 2 mattresses within the year before that, but all signs are pointing in that direction.

Other than the stiff back have you noticed any signs of restlessness or trouble getting off to sleep?

However, I would like to note that this was not the only catalyst. Recently I have taken to doing beta testing with a few fat loss stimulants. This too I am suspecting was another contributing factor, one I need to do more research on. Adding a stimulant to an already exhaustive cns workout may hasten the effects of overtraining so in essence:

Done testing & it didn`t contain what it said on the tin so I`ll never do it again EVER. Stimulants are the biggest culprit to individuals going overboard in the gym (see above post) & I think a lot of supplement companies have a lot to answer for in so much as they are now peddling legal amphetamine because some of these products have individuals "wired" for some time after the workout has completed. We are going to see "issues" arise from this in the next few years..imho..

Another issue I find so prevalent within the training contingent these days is overuse of "supplements" that are used to fire up an individuals "drive~focus" leading up to a workout. We have all found that a cup of black gold (coffee) works yet these products seem to take it to a near chemical level & in my honest opinion~experience are at times counter productive. Occasional use I have no problem with especially on those days when your not feeling 100% up for the workout or following a hard day at work. But what I have seen is that occasional use almost always goes to "constant" use & the body~individual cannot function without them. The other negative seems to be that these "supplements" have a tendency to push the trainee far beyond their normal training capacity but worse of all "beyond their actual recovery abilities". If this continues over a prolonged amount of time a "supplement" which was designed to help an individual break down barriers becomes the very thing that stops them from reaching & breaching those barriers.

As someone once said to me "you can put a Ferrari engine into a mini but eventually it`ll shake itself to bits" & that is something I think that continual use of these products does.

This too has merit. I would like to do more research on this while also looking at its effects on the adrenal glands.
Before this beta testing, caffeine (tea) was my only stimulant and though I probably had mattress issues then too, over-training was not an issue despite an immense and intense workload. So this too has merit and is worth looking into.

A lot of things can affect the adrenal glands other than just the caffeine, pushing too hard in the gym (off your head on a supplement) stress to name two.

Currently I am researching mattresses and attacking that end first. I am researching foam, water, air, and combinations of those mentioned. I am also increasing my calories and bcaa’s to aid in recovery.
Very good info in this thread, and worth continuing.

But are you actually taking a break or reducing your training intensity/volume to help with this recovery?

[Melas Zomos]

...

Al, at this point I am willing to give even a shark hammock a go

Melas Zomos, what bodyweight are you at, the best matress i had, was one that was made specially for me at my weight at the time............of course if weight fluctuates too much its no good. Wife and i had effectively 2 separate mattresses that zipped together.............thay actually took in to account your main sleeping position and padded it out accordingly..........very expensive but worked great, had the bed for nearly 10 years with no problems *maybe a little towards the end)
interesting article you wrote re overtraining, especially the sleep bit.

I am at 215lbs, that is 98kg for my overseas buddies, and 15 stones for Cookie.
I usually maintain 208-220lbs, depending on injuries and recovery needed.
Have not looked into custom made mattress yet, but hell if it works…..

Here is the low down, I will try to be brief:
Currently I am researching, air, water, and foam mattress with a slight edge at the moment going to a combination of air and latex foam.
I would like to try the mammoth elite sport that Cookie recommended, but getting over here may not be cost effective. I am looking into it though.
I have slept on coil spring mattress all my life and had never had problems until the last few years. It seems the overall quality of spring mattress has declined. I bought a mid to high end king size mattress 3 years ago to replace one I had for nearly 6yrs when the dip became to great to ignore. It lasted only a few months before sagging. I would lay on it flat and if you put a level on me one side was significantly lower than the other. It was deemed a faulty mattress by the representative and replaced. The replacement lasted 6 months before it too began sagging noticeably (you could put a straight edge on it and notice a 2”+ sag) this too was deemed faulty. Talking with a friend of mine who does deliveries, he stated that the majority of King size and even Queen size beds are exchanged; they just can’t make one that big without having it fail (coil spring). On his recommendation I then bought 2 twin longs (which equal a king in size). I purchased 2 different mattresses both with different firmness. One was extremely firm, the other semi-firm. Both mattress were very comfortable and held up well for 2 years (so I thought), however BOTH are now starting to fail, with the semi-firm one failing the worse (of course it is the one I sleep on).
I like the idea of the air mattress with a latex topper because in theory any dip would only take a pumping up of the air bags, assuming none of them were broken. But I am open to anything.

Other than the stiff back have you noticed any signs of restlessness or trouble getting off to sleep?

Generally no trouble getting off to sleep whatsoever, hit the pillow and out within 5-15 minutes. Unless, of course, I know I have to be up earlier than I usually get up and then I have trouble. I think it is because I hate the alarm on the clock…but that is who different thing.

Restlessness is another story. Wife says I will start to snore wake up, toss and turn and then go back to sleep several times, usually in different positions. I also usually get up after a few hours to hit the head, but most of the time I do not believe it is overly warranted. Snoring was not an issue till the last couple of years…hmmm.
Another thing is I do grind my teeth considerably, it has always been like this and I have to wear a mouthpiece. No cavities, but my teeth are worn worse than a 70yr old so I am a little tense of an individual.

[Cookie]

Here is the low down, I will try to be brief:
Currently I am researching, air, water, and foam mattress with a slight edge at the moment going to a combination of air and latex foam.
I would like to try the mammoth elite sport that Cookie recommended, but getting over here may not be cost effective. I am looking into it though.
I have slept on coil spring mattress all my life and had never had problems until the last few years. It seems the overall quality of spring mattress has declined. I bought a mid to high end king size mattress 3 years ago to replace one I had for nearly 6yrs when the dip became to great to ignore. It lasted only a few months before sagging. I would lay on it flat and if you put a level on me one side was significantly lower than the other. It was deemed a faulty mattress by the representative and replaced. The replacement lasted 6 months before it too began sagging noticeably (you could put a straight edge on it and notice a 2”+ sag) this too was deemed faulty. Talking with a friend of mine who does deliveries, he stated that the majority of King size and even Queen size beds are exchanged; they just can’t make one that big without having it fail (coil spring). On his recommendation I then bought 2 twin longs (which equal a king in size). I purchased 2 different mattresses both with different firmness. One was extremely firm, the other semi-firm. Both mattress were very comfortable and held up well for 2 years (so I thought), however BOTH are now starting to fail, with the semi-firm one failing the worse (of course it is the one I sleep on).
I like the idea of the air mattress with a latex topper because in theory any dip would only take a pumping up of the air bags, assuming none of them were broken. But I am open to anything.

When I was originally having trouble with my own mattress I got a memory foam 2 inch thick mattress topper which eventually lasted a good 18 months before switching to current mattress. Worth a shot as a stop gag till you`ve found what you want & most toppers are a lot cheaper than a full sized mattress.

Other than the stiff back have you noticed any signs of restlessness or trouble getting off to sleep?

Generally no trouble getting off to sleep whatsoever, hit the pillow and out within 5-15 minutes. Unless, of course, I know I have to be up earlier than I usually get up and then I have trouble. I think it is because I hate the alarm on the clock…but that is who different thing.

Get one of those alarm clocks that`s a light which slowly glows brighter to wake you up gently like the perfect sunrise...

Restlessness is another story. Wife says I will start to snore wake up, toss and turn and then go back to sleep several times, usually in different positions. I also usually get up after a few hours to hit the head, but most of the time I do not believe it is overly warranted. Snoring was not an issue till the last couple of years…hmmm.
Another thing is I do grind my teeth considerably, it has always been like this and I have to wear a mouthpiece. No cavities, but my teeth are worn worse than a 70yr old so I am a little tense of an individual.

Are you off the stims (pre workout/fat burning)?

Snoring is usually associated with being overweight...mmmmm...lol

[samurai69]

Snoring is usually associated with being overweight...mmmmm...lol

or alchohol............being so comatose fall asleep on back...............one of the better reasons for snoring


.

[Melas Zomos]

But are you actually taking a break or reducing your training intensity/volume to help with this recovery?

Yes, of course. Reduced the workload.

Are you off the stims (pre workout/fat burning)?

Well, that depends on your definition of stims. Eliminated the fat burning, as I believe this played a much larger role than I wanted to believe (largest role I am convinced is still the mattress). I do not think adding a fat burning stimulant on top of a CNS style workout is a good idea. This is probably a case by case basis, but for me the two do not appear to mix. Need a little more research and experimentation to be sure. As far as stims do you count tea? Still need a little caffeine to make a go of it, especially when your caught in a catch 22 with the sleep. I would say that I am under the 300mg mark, but who can tell with tea bags, every one seems different.

Snoring is usually associated with being overweight...mmmmm...lol

I prefer to call it my Mesomorph phase, Ecto-boy
Nah, not to bad I am a good 10lbs lighter than my infamous photo shoot
Try to keep the bf levels between 8-15% with 12% or so the norm and 15% if I need to heal better

Snoring is usually associated with being overweight...mmmmm...lol

or alchohol............being so comatose fall asleep on back...............one of the better reasons for snoring.

Ha! Now that is something I have neglected in my training. Lightweight in that department. Might explain the snoring on Friday night, but the six other???

Get one of those alarm clocks that`s a light which slowly glows brighter to wake you up gently like the perfect sunrise...

I bet you used to be called “Sunshine” a bunch, Sunshine

When I was originally having trouble with my own mattress I got a memory foam 2 inch thick mattress topper which eventually lasted a good 18 months before switching to current mattress. Worth a shot as a stop gag till you`ve found what you want & most toppers are a lot cheaper than a full sized mattress.

Good idea, I think I got the mattress narrowed down. Your guys at Mammoth have wonderful customer support, but I think it is going to be too much of a p.i.a. to get it over here in a timely manner.
I would go ahead an order the 2” topper, but some nice young gentlemen decided to take a crowbar to the wife’s car and of course she had everything in their. Got to get that mess straightened out....


In that Brazilian Journal of Biomotricity they talk about Decreased Submaximal and maximal lactate response to exercise, do you know what they mean? I think I have an idea.

[Cookie]

Well, that depends on your definition of stims. Eliminated the fat burning, as I believe this played a much larger role than I wanted to believe (largest role I am convinced is still the mattress). I do not think adding a fat burning stimulant on top of a CNS style workout is a good idea. This is probably a case by case basis, but for me the two do not appear to mix. Need a little more research and experimentation to be sure. As far as stims do you count tea? Still need a little caffeine to make a go of it, especially when your caught in a catch 22 with the sleep. I would say that I am under the 300mg mark, but who can tell with tea bags, every one seems different.

300mg I would say is fine, more than me but your older so need more of a kick up the jacksie each morning

Good call on eliminating the fat burners. Fallen into that trap myself of waking up firing down a coffee & a fat burning to then go out do some cardio/workout etc to shed a little blubber. To then a couple of weeks down the line literately slam into a wall because I`d overdone in on the stim/CNS front. Easy trap to fall into especially when your seeing results.

I prefer to call it my Mesomorph phase, Ecto-boy

Might change my username to that now

Nah, not to bad I am a good 10lbs lighter than my infamous photo shoot
Try to keep the bf levels between 8-15% with 12% or so the norm and 15% if I need to heal better

Ah that shoot

Sometimes just being "heavy" via extra muscle can cause problems for some people.

I bet you used to be called “Sunshine” a bunch, Sunshine

Many a time

Good idea, I think I got the mattress narrowed down. Your guys at Mammoth have wonderful customer support, but I think it is going to be too much of a p.i.a. to get it over here in a timely manner.

Can`t fault their customer service. I had a few "issues" & even the CEO got in touch to say he wasn`t happy & offered a refund.

I would go ahead an order the 2” topper, but some nice young gentlemen decided to take a crowbar to the wife’s car and of course she had everything in their. Got to get that mess straightened out....

Not very nice. Hopefully she wasn`t in it when they did it?

In that Brazilian Journal of Biomotricity they talk about Decreased Submaximal and maximal lactate response to exercise, do you know what they mean? I think I have an idea.

Off top of my head no. But I`ll look into it once I`ve gotten over today`s workout & have 10 minutes to do some reading.

[tomato]

i can have similar problems with sleep,
i tend to fall asleep quite easily buty i can wake up several times in the night, and sometimes have a sore back in the morning
i was unsure as to what may be causing this, wether it was the sunkght coming through the windows, maybe my mind is active thinking about work etc should i just be going to bed earlier and getting up erlier, but after reading this i may try to find a new mattress. i have been sleeping in different beds (at my mums, my new house and my girlfriends) and found i had no problem at my girlfriends when she was away on holiday, i felt FRESH when i woke for the first time in ages.

maybe its a combination of things but i will definitely be looking for a mattres solution soon!

[Cookie]

i can have similar problems with sleep,
i tend to fall asleep quite easily buty i can wake up several times in the night, and sometimes have a sore back in the morning
i was unsure as to what may be causing this, wether it was the sunkght coming through the windows, maybe my mind is active thinking about work etc should i just be going to bed earlier and getting up erlier, but after reading this i may try to find a new mattress. i have been sleeping in different beds (at my mums, my new house and my girlfriends) and found i had no problem at my girlfriends when she was away on holiday, i felt FRESH when i woke for the first time in ages.

maybe its a combination of things but i will definitely be looking for a mattres solution soon!

Always helps to have a good place to sleep. You brought up an interesting point with feeling so refreshed after sleeping alone & away from girlfriend. Seen this before & friends have said the same thing. Have also seen in the past an article or two that mentioned the quality of sleep now being much poorer with the authors take on it being that in the pre 50`s more people slept in single beds than today. This they said allowed for better sleep with less disturbances from partners moving & interrupting each others sleep patterns.

[Melas Zomos]

Always helps to have a good place to sleep. You brought up an interesting point with feeling so refreshed after sleeping alone & away from girlfriend. Seen this before & friends have said the same thing. Have also seen in the past an article or two that mentioned the quality of sleep now being much poorer with the authors take on it being that in the pre 50`s more people slept in single beds than today. This they said allowed for better sleep with less disturbances from partners moving & interrupting each others sleep patterns.

I agree.
I feel a part of the problem too is the furniture. Most people utilize the bed frames given out by the mattress company or purchase an inferior bed frame, it just can't accomidate two people without moving unless modifications are made. The easiest solution and a good test would be to remove the bed frame so the box spring is on the floor. This will help eliminate a bunch of movement. It would also determine if the mattress is the problem with movement or the frame, or the woman. Another solution is if you are shopping for a king size mattress is too get 2 twin longs.