Trib

[Scott]

is trib really any use?
with the exception of pct as thats not applicible, does it 'really' do anything?

[Cookie]

is trib really any use?
with the exception of pct as thats not applicible, does it 'really' do anything?

Long time since I used it, made me horny as hell, increase in strength & muscles felt a little fuller. Trouble was I doubled the suggested dose as I was told once buy a manufacturer/seller that the suggested doses on tubs wasn`t enough to deliver the results as they should.

[Scott]

Long time since I used it, made me horny as hell, increase in strength & muscles felt a little fuller. Trouble was I doubled the suggested dose as I was told once buy a manufacturer/seller that the suggested doses on tubs wasn`t enough to deliver the results as they should.

what do you make of the arguments against it, have you heard any valid complaints about it?

[Cookie]

what do you make of the arguments against it, have you heard any valid complaints about it?

When I have seen complaints about it the doses used were in he range of 1500-2000mg per day when I used to suggest at least 3-4000mg per day. Another thing is also quality & some people said they did better with certain brands.

[Scott]

are there cheaper types or like less pure types which get sold? anything you can look out for to avoid the crappy ingrediants?

kinda like if you look at tesco for omega 3 where you get 'high strength caps' which have about 200mg in them!

[Cookie]

are there cheaper types or like less pure types which get sold? anything you can look out for to avoid the crappy ingrediants?

kinda like if you look at tesco for omega 3 where you get 'high strength caps' which have about 200mg in them!

Like a lot of things you get what you pay for within a certain limit, I was going to try some trib & similar products from myprotein but haven`t got round to it yet.

[tomato]

from what i gather trib increases activity of reproductive hormones but not testosterone
it apparently doesnt increase strength and size

[fits]

From personal experiance It gave me the major horn! that obviously doesn't have to mean that it raised test levels but i felt good on it too and it was worht it. Cookies told me the site to buy from and the does.

Again I think it will come down allot on the quality, the dose, the % of active ingredient etc.

[Cookie]

The effects of tribulus terrestris on body composition and exercise
performance in resistance-trained males.
Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab 2000 Jun;10(2):208- 15

Antonio J, Uelmen J, Rodriguez R, Earnest C

The purpose of this study was to determine the effects of the herbal
preparation Tribulus terrestris (tribulus) on body composition and
exercise performance in resistance-trained males. Fifteen subjects
were randomly assigned to a placebo or tribulus (3.21 mg per kg body
weight daily) group. Body weight, body composition, maximal strength,
dietary intake, and mood states were determined before and after an 8-
week exercise (periodized resistance training) and supplementation
period. There were no changes in body weight, percentage fat, total
body water, dietary intake, or mood states in either group. Muscle
endurance (determined by the maximal number of repetitions at 100-
200% of body weight) increased for the bench and leg press exercises
in the placebo group (p <.05; bench press +/-28.4%, leg press +/-
28.6%), while the tribulus group experienced an increase in leg press
strength only (bench press +/-3.1%, not significant; leg press +/-
28.6%, p <.05). Supplementation with tribulus does not enhance body
composition or exercise performance in resistance-trained males.

============ ========= ========= ========

Rogerson, S., C.J. Riches, C. Jennings, R.P. Weatherby, R.A. Meir,
and S.M. Marshall-Gradisnik.

The effect of five weeks of Tribulus terrestris supplementation on
muscle strength and body composition during preseason training in
elite rugby league players.

J. Strength Cond. Res. 21(2):348–353. 2007.—

Tribulus terrestris is an herbal nutritional supplement that is
promoted to produce large gains in strength and lean muscle mass in 5–
28 days (15, 18). Although some manufacturers claim T. terrestris
will not lead to a positive drug test, others have suggested that T.
terrestris may increase the urinary testosterone/ epitestosterone
(T/E) ratio, which may place athletes at risk of a positive drug
test.

The purpose of the study was to determine the effect of T. terrestris
on strength, fat free mass, and the urinary T/E ratio during 5 weeks
of preseason training in elite rugby league players. Twenty-two
Australian elite male rugby league players (mean ± SD; age = 19.8 ±
2.9 years; weight = 88.0 ± 9.5 kg) were match-paired and randomly
assigned in a double-blind manner to either a T. terrestris (n = 11)
or placebo (n = 11) group. All subjects performed structured heavy
resistance training as part of the club's preseason preparations. A
T. terrestris extract (450 mg·d&#8722;1) or placebo capsules were consumed
once daily for 5 weeks. Muscular strength, body composition, and the
urinary T/E ratio were monitored prior to and after supplementation.
After 5 weeks of training, strength and fat free mass increased
significantly without any between-group differences.

No between-group differences were noted in the urinary T/E ratio. It
was concluded that T. terrestris did not produce the large gains in
strength or lean muscle mass that many manufacturers claim can be
experienced within 5–28 days. Furthermore, T. terrestris did not
alter the urinary T/E ratio and would not place an athlete at risk of
testing positive based on the World Anti-Doping Agency's urinary T/E
ratio limit of 4:1.

============ ========= ========
Dr Incledon:

The problem with Tribulus products is that most are no better than grass clippings. We analyzed the number one selling product and it had no detectable traces of any of the saponins or saponingens. Obviously these products will not do anything to increase LH. Below is a recent study that was published. Tribulus did nothing and it this study analyzed the product. It did contain active agents. The dosages were low, so perhaps more is needed. However, other Tribulus studies using fairly high dosages were also done. The abstract were presented at this year's ACSM. No effects were found on LH. While I have had numerous anecdotal reports of testicular hypertrophy emailed to me and lots of guys claiming that there Tribulus product works, the scientific data to date does not support use of Tribulus products. There is a need for studies to be done with much larger dosages to see if it is simply a dose response issue.

I should also tell you that I have found agents that safely and reliably increase LH and T, with T levels increasing by 15%. This was not enough to positively effect lean body mass of strength. If you follow the data from prescription drugs, unless someone has low levels of T or free T, it usually takes very large dosages (relative to endogenous production) to influence body composition and strength.

---

All the studies I have seen indicate that it does not elevate LH or testosterone. It may improve sexual function in some people, but this is debatable and variable. I think that because men were getting erections from using the product that they assumed their testosterone levels were higher, this is not necessarily the case. Blood flow is a major factor that determines erectile function, which is why agents that vasodilate the blood vessels of the penis work so well.

-----

I think it was Tom Incledon writing for Testosterone who reviewed recent studies that show tribulus products do not in fact increase testosterone at all. What they do do is, if I remember correctly, relax certain pelvic muscles which result in greater blood flow to the penis during erections. This "anecdotal evidence" was used to postulate that testosterone had been increased, but apparently it does not increase at all. My own experiences with Biotest's Tribex-500 gave me plenty of "anecdotal evidence" but I never noticed anything in terms of increased strength.

None of the studies on Tribex thus far showed an increase in T or LH levels. I also tried 20 capsules per day, and nothing happened. I think it may be great for older women or people with potential for osteoporosis, as my colleagues did show in one study that it increased bone density, in get this, male athletes that already had a very high bone density.

============ ========= =========

Dr Kreider noted (Muscular Development 38(10), 2001):

Does Tribulus Terrestris Work?
Well, as you know, the theoretical rationale behind many supplements sounds promising. However, the
promises often fade when one looks at the scientific evidence supporting the theories. Tribulus is no
exception. To date, there are only a handful of studies that have investigated the effects of Tribulus
terrestris supplementation on hormone regulation, sexual function, health, and/or training adaptations.
Most of these studies have been conducted in animals. Although several web sites claim that Tribulus
terrestris supplementation markedly increases LH and testosterone levels, I was only able to find two
published studies that have investigated the effects of Tribulus terrestris supplementation on training
adaptations in humans.
In the first study, Antonio and colleagues (9) evaluated the effects of Tribulus terrestris supplementation
during training on body composition and performance. In a double blind and randomized manner, 15
resistance-trained males ingested either 3.21 mg/kg/day of a placebo (P) or Tribulus terrestris (T) for eight
weeks during a standardized resistance-training program. Prior to and following supplementation,
subjects completed dietary inventories, a mood state psychological inventory, and had body composition
(skinfolds and hydrostatic weighing) and total body water (bioelectrical impedance) measurements
determined. The subjects also performed a maximum repetition tests on the bench press and leg press at
100% and 200% of body weight, respectively. Results revealed that Tribulus terrestris supplementation
had no significant effects on changes in mood states, total body weight (P +0.6, T +0.9 kg), total body
water (P +0.9, T +0.3 liters), hydrostatically determined percent body fat (P +0.2, T +0.0 %), or gains in
bench press (P +28.4, T +3.1 %) or leg press (P +26.1, T +28.6 %) muscle endurance. Although LH and
testosterone levels were not assessed in this study, results indicated that Tribulus terrestris
supplementation (approximately 250 mg/day) during resistance training had no significant effects on body
composition or training adaptations.
Proponents of Tribulus terrestris supplementation have suggested that the dosage in the previous study
may have been insufficient, that Tribulus terrestris may be more effective when coingested with other
anabolic precursors, and/or that Tribulus terrestris may have a greater impact on untrained subjects
initiating training. However, research findings from a study by Brown and associates (10) do not support
these contentions. In the first part of this study, 10 subjects were evaluated to determine the effects of
ingesting a placebo or anabolic precursors on hormone levels. Subjects had fasting blood determined and
then ingested a placebo or a supplement containing 100 mg androstenedione, 50 mg DHEA, 250 mg
Tribulus terrestris, 195 mg Chrysin, 100 mg Indole-3-carbinol, and 180 mg Saw palmetto. Blood samples
were obtained every hour for six hours. Results revealed that anabolic precursor supplementation
significantly increased androstenedione levels. However, no significant differences were between the
placebo and anabolic precursor trials in LH, follicle stimulating hormone (FSH), estradiol, free
testosterone, or total testosterone levels. These findings suggest that although anabolic precursors may
increase androstenedione levels, they have no significant acute effect on other androgenic or estrogenic
hormones.
In the second phase of this study, 20 untrained young male subjects participated in a 3-day per week
resistance training program for 8-weeks. In a double blind and randomized manner, subjects ingested a
placebo (P) or a supplement containing 300 mg androstenedione, 150 mg DHEA, 750 mg Tribulus
terrestris, 625 mg Chrysin, 300 mg Indole-3-carbinol, and 540 mg Saw palmetto (Andro-6) every day
during weeks 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, and 8 of training. Fasting blood samples were obtained prior to
supplementation and after 2, 5, and 8 weeks of supplementation. Body composition (via skinfolds and
hydrostatic weighing) and one-repetition maximum (1RM) upper and lower body strength tests were
determined at 0, 4, and 8 weeks of supplementation. In addition, muscle biopsies were obtained prior to
and following the supplementation/ training interventions to assess changes in muscle fiber diameter.
Results revealed that chronic Andro-6 supplementation during training increased fasting androstenedione,
estradiol, and estrone levels while decreasing high-density lipoproteins (HDL) levels. No significant
differences were observed in LH, FSH, total testosterone, free testosterone, or estriol levels. Moreover,
no significant differences were observed between groups in changes in body composition, muscle fiber
diameter, or gains in 1RM strength. These findings suggest that ingesting Tribulus terrestris (750
mg/day) with other anabolic precursors does not significantly affect body composition or training
adaptations.
Bottom Line
Despite popular claims, there currently appears to be little if any data supporting the ergogenic value of
Tribulus terrestris supplementation for resistance-trained athletes. Additionally, studies that have
evaluated the ergogenic value of other anabolic precursors in younger athletes have shown little to no
benefit with some potentially dangerous side effects. My advice is to stay away from these types of
anabolic precursors unless recommended by your physician.

[fits]

So Basically Steve you get me to buy supplements from you and then tell me they don't work???????????????????????????

With herbs its hard to tell allot of the time. If there is a shred of evidence on a herb then the supplement companies ruin it by exaggerating the possible results you will get with it, and then by handing out shit products!!

apart from the active ingredient that needs to be in the sup, it can also depend on the age, the extraction technique, age, how they have been stored, even at what time of year it was harvested! It makes it hard some times, too hard for most but put in the time and effort to research a bit and then purchase fresh,quality produce and results will be increased dramatically i think.


If I wanted to increase T levels id go for.

Ginseng
Astragalus
Ashagaha
Long Jack
Saw palmento
DHEA
Trib
Zink
Saturated fats
Omega oil


Lowering Estrogen

Rosemary
Sage
Oregano
Omega 3
Iodine

And more but im out of time

Sorry not been on, I was away part of last week and busy as hell right now, will get back into it shortly.

[Cookie]

So Basically Steve you get me to buy supplements from you and then tell me they don't work???????????????????????????

IIRC you found some positives from that product

With herbs its hard to tell allot of the time. If there is a shred of evidence on a herb then the supplement companies ruin it by exaggerating the possible results you will get with it, and then by handing out shit products!!

apart from the active ingredient that needs to be in the sup, it can also depend on the age, the extraction technique, age, how they have been stored, even at what time of year it was harvested! It makes it hard some times, too hard for most but put in the time and effort to research a bit and then purchase fresh,quality produce and results will be increased dramatically i think.


If I wanted to increase T levels id go for.

Ginseng
Astragalus
Ashagaha
Long Jack
Saw palmento
DHEA
Trib
Zink
Saturated fats
Omega oil


Lowering Estrogen

Rosemary
Sage
Oregano
Omega 3
Iodine

And more but im out of time

Sorry not been on, I was away part of last week and busy as hell right now, will get back into it shortly.

About time you did some work for your money instead of bugging me on messenger

Again you have pointed out some very valid points.

I was told years ago by a supplement manufacturer/seller that do gain full benefits from trib the daily dose needed to be a minimum of 3000mgs but working up to 6000mgs over a period of time till you found "your" sweet spot with it. I have used trib & got some benefits from it but with all these contra studies you do wonder if it is all in the head or there is actually something going on at a cellular level that the scientists have yet to pick up on.

[Scott]

great thread this btw.

I cant see me buying trib now. I had thought about it but the odds on it doing what I would want seem far too low.