BCAA's vs EAA

[westy]

I did a search for this but couldn't find anything that answered my question.
If this has been discussed sorry for starting a new thread!

I wanted to see if anyone has any experience of these two and the differences?

I am able to get BCAA's from Reflex at a reduced rate and have been using them for a couple of weeks as I suffer a LOT from DOMS especially when training legs, I don't think this is from a lack of Protein (I get about 100-120g/day @ 77kg bodyweight), and I use Pro Recover straight after a session.

I also take a multi vit and omega 3's.

However with most of the reading I have done recently it seems that Essential Amino Acids helped to reduce DOMS a lot.

What do you guys think as I'm basically disabled for 2 days every time I train legs!!!

Westy

[Cookie]

I did a search for this but couldn't find anything that answered my question.
If this has been discussed sorry for starting a new thread!

I wanted to see if anyone has any experience of these two and the differences?

I am able to get BCAA's from Reflex at a reduced rate and have been using them for a couple of weeks as I suffer a LOT from DOMS especially when training legs, I don't think this is from a lack of Protein (I get about 100-120g/day @ 77kg bodyweight), and I use Pro Recover straight after a session.

I also take a multi vit and omega 3's.

However with most of the reading I have done recently it seems that Essential Amino Acids helped to reduce DOMS a lot.

What do you guys think as I'm basically disabled for 2 days every time I train legs!!!

Westy

What does your leg routine consist off?

How are DOM`s in your other body parts, training days?

What do you consume pre & sub workout(s)?

Do you do any form of active recovery to help with the removal of waste by products from the muscles being worked?

What does you cool down consist of after training legs or any other body part?

I use BCAA`s myself intermittently & its a heck of a long time since solely used EAA`s which were very big in the late 80`s & early 90`s but then fell out of favour when whey proteins hit the market along with glutamine.

Lots of questions I know but it will give us a bigger picture to work off.

[westy]

Hi Cookie thanks for the reply.

Im currently doing the Juggernaut Training Plan.

It's a bit of a hybrid of the 5/3/1 and Block Periodisation.

At the moment I am in the accumulation phase which is this on squat day (the one that causes huge DOMS)

Back Squat 5x10@60% (65kg)
DB Lunge 2x10 (10kg)
Pull Throughs 3x15 (35kg)

I don't really get DOMS on the other days, a little bit in my Hamstrings after RDL's but only normal, it goes after 24-48 hours.

I should probably say that I have generally done 3x5 squat in the past and have done little in the way of higher reps.

40mins pre-workout I take 2 scoops whey protein (20g protein) + 6 reflex BCAA's which is
1500mg L-Leucine
750mg L-Isoleucine
750mg L-Valine
1.2mg Vitamin B6

Then after the session I take 1 Scoop of Pro Recover and 2 scoops whey protein. Plus 6 more BCAA tabs.

I don't do any active recovery after a session but I do stretch and have recently started stretching daily.

Hopefully that covers everything.

Thanks again for the help.

I also wanted to discuss a simple mass building nutrition plan at some point, thought I would mention it here as I didn't want to start lots of threads all over the place!

Westy

[Melas Zomos]

If you are trying to get bcaa's to help with doms, then you need to ATLEAST double what you are taking which would put you near 5g total each dosing.
I would then look into taking 5g (12 tabs) 4 times a day on training days to help combat the problem with the last dosing before bed.
I have long since abandoned tabs and use powdered bcaa's because of cost. The best I have found is by Ajinomoto labs and is marketed under a variety of names.

Post stretching is a must.

Before I offer some more suggestions, I am little confused as you state your hamstrings are not affected that bad. Is your soreness quad based then?

What do you do conditioning wise that involves the legs through the week?

Are you eating correctly?

[Melas Zomos]

Sorry, forgot to answer your original question, yes EAA's may help with soreness if all other variables are satisfactory (posture, diet, workthreshold etc...)
The problem with EAA's is they are not widely popular and can be pricey. Personally I just use BCAA because of price.
If I remember correctly you need to take 3-4g EAA before and after resistance work as it is supposed to aid in protein synthesis. I remember reading a really study on both somewhere, just got to remember where

[westy]

Hi Melas

Good to know about the dosing of BCAA's thanks for that.

I do get DOMS in my Hamstrings but only what I would call 'normal' i.e. 24-48 hours of stiffness but with proper warm up and foam roller etc it's not too bad.

The really bad DOMS I get it pretty much all quad (with a bit of adductor) and it happens after squat sessions, particularly high volume ones. I actually struggle to walk for 2-3 days.

My training week is

2 upper body weight sessions

2 lower body weight sessions.
Prior to weights on the lower body days I do Box or depth Jumps (3x3) or Sprints (either weighted with sled or just 10/20m sprints), I do these as I am trying to improve my power/explosiveness for American Football.

1 Prowler/Tyre Session (I'll do something like flip a tyre then push prowler 20m, rest 30 sec and repeat 6 times. Then rest 3 mins and do whole thing 3 times)

I also play football (soccer) once a week.

Pre-season for American Football starts soon and I will then stop playing soccer.

Overall the week is

Mon - Jump + Squat day

Tue - Bench Day

Wed - Prowler/Tyre

Thu - Military Press Day

Fri - Sprints + Deadlift

Sat - Soccer

Sun - Off

The sessions are from Juggernaut training method which is similar to 531 but starts of with much more volume.


As for diet I feel that I do it pretty well (but i'm not sure if I eat enough protein?) a typical day would be

Breakfast - 2 whole egg/ 2 egg white omelette with Mushrooms + Reflex Pit Stop Protein Bar + green tea

Snack - 2 Satsumas, Banana and CNP Pro Flapjack Bar

Lunch - 200g chicken, fist sized portion of potato,rice, parsnips, squash etc, tub blueberries

Snack - Pro Peptide shake

Dinner - 200g chicken,fish or beef, fist sized portion of carbs, fist sized portion of veg

Snack - If im honest ill often have 3-4 digestive biscuits or an ice lolly.

That would be a pretty typical day with workout food as listed above

I would be interested to know what you think.

Westy

[Cookie]

Hi Cookie thanks for the reply.

Im currently doing the Juggernaut Training Plan.

It's a bit of a hybrid of the 5/3/1 and Block Periodisation.

I will check that program out as I`m not familiar with it but it does look like another program I`ve used going by the set up you`ve posted in the thread

At the moment I am in the accumulation phase which is this on squat day (the one that causes huge DOMS)

Back Squat 5x10@60% (65kg)
DB Lunge 2x10 (10kg)
Pull Throughs 3x15 (35kg)

I don't really get DOMS on the other days, a little bit in my Hamstrings after RDL's but only normal, it goes after 24-48 hours.

I should probably say that I have generally done 3x5 squat in the past and have done little in the way of higher reps.

First look makes me think that that is not really very high in volume but on another post you mention this:

Prior to weights on the lower body days I do Box or depth Jumps (3x3) or Sprints (either weighted with sled or just 10/20m sprints), I do these as I am trying to improve my power/explosiveness for American Football.

Sprints should not be much of a problem but the depth jumps could be something that`s shocking the quads & increasing your overall volume to a point which your body is not used to.

Now killer question...are the depth jumps done with a jump after initial contact with the ground or do you "stick" the landing in a near bottom squat position & hold for a couple of seconds?

There is a difference & I`ve noticed that the term "depth jumps" has been bastardised from its original writings.

40mins pre-workout I take 2 scoops whey protein (20g protein) + 6 reflex BCAA's which is
1500mg L-Leucine
750mg L-Isoleucine
750mg L-Valine
1.2mg Vitamin B6

Then after the session I take 1 Scoop of Pro Recover and 2 scoops whey protein. Plus 6 more BCAA tabs.

I would have liked to have seen some CHO`s pre workout & I think the ratio for CHO-Pro post workout is 4-1 taken within the first 30 minutes & a solid meal within the next 120 minutes.

I don't do any active recovery after a session but I do stretch and have recently started stretching daily.

Stretching after a workout is a very good idea because it will help with the removal of waste products from the muscles. I would also suggest 15-20 of very steady cardio on either a stationary bike or treadmill. Again to help with the removal of waste products.

Hopefully that covers everything.

Thanks again for the help.

I also wanted to discuss a simple mass building nutrition plan at some point, thought I would mention it here as I didn't want to start lots of threads all over the place!

Westy

Your welcome & feel free to post up as many questions or threads you want.

I do get DOMS in my Hamstrings but only what I would call 'normal' i.e. 24-48 hours of stiffness but with proper warm up and foam roller etc it's not too bad.

An excellent addition to anyone's training regime.

The really bad DOMS I get it pretty much all quad (with a bit of adductor) and it happens after squat sessions, particularly high volume ones. I actually struggle to walk for 2-3 days.

Is the pain a deep burning pain/sensation high up towards the top of the outer thigh near the hip & do you also feel this type of pain all down the outside of the quad & along the IT band region?

If yes (and it`s something I suffer with a lot) then I think you need to increase your work on hip/quad flexibility & foam rolling of the IT bands. This si something that crops up with myself when I have a couple of weeks off back squats or increase my weights or volume.

My training week is

2 upper body weight sessions

2 lower body weight sessions.
Prior to weights on the lower body days I do Box or depth Jumps (3x3) or Sprints (either weighted with sled or just 10/20m sprints), I do these as I am trying to improve my power/explosiveness for American Football.

1 Prowler/Tyre Session (I'll do something like flip a tyre then push prowler 20m, rest 30 sec and repeat 6 times. Then rest 3 mins and do whole thing 3 times)

I also play football (soccer) once a week.

Pre-season for American Football starts soon and I will then stop playing soccer.

Overall the week is

Mon - Jump + Squat day

Tue - Bench Day

Wed - Prowler/Tyre

Thu - Military Press Day

Fri - Sprints + Deadlift

Sat - Soccer

Sun - Off

The sessions are from Juggernaut training method which is similar to 531 but starts of with much more volume.

Looking at that I think you may see some improvements in recovery once you get the extra day off when football (soccer) ceases.

Suggestions for helping with overall recovery would be to increase stretching, do some swimming, foam rolling after heavy sessions & try some cryotherapy aka "cold water/ice baths" post training & a couple of times per week after high workload sessions have an epsom salt bath to help with blood circulation & get extra magnesium into your system.

As for diet I feel that I do it pretty well (but i'm not sure if I eat enough protein?) a typical day would be

Breakfast - 2 whole egg/ 2 egg white omelette with Mushrooms + Reflex Pit Stop Protein Bar + green tea

Snack - 2 Satsumas, Banana and CNP Pro Flapjack Bar

Lunch - 200g chicken, fist sized portion of potato,rice, parsnips, squash etc, tub blueberries

Snack - Pro Peptide shake

Dinner - 200g chicken,fish or beef, fist sized portion of carbs, fist sized portion of veg

Snack - If im honest ill often have 3-4 digestive biscuits or an ice lolly.

That would be a pretty typical day with workout food as listed above

I would be interested to know what you think.

Westy

Given your overall training volume I think you could get away with an increase in all of the nutrients, fats, CHO & protein. That diet looks a little sparse calorie wise for what you do.

If you are trying to get bcaa's to help with doms, then you need to ATLEAST double what you are taking which would put you near 5g total each dosing.
I would then look into taking 5g (12 tabs) 4 times a day on training days to help combat the problem with the last dosing before bed.
I have long since abandoned tabs and use powdered bcaa's because of cost. The best I have found is by Ajinomoto labs and is marketed under a variety of names.

Agree with that. I used to be a big fan of using amino acids all through the day in smallish doses to keep nitrogen levels topped up.

[Melas Zomos]

Great points Cookie, and I agree.

I would be interested to know what you think.Westy

I have a few thoughts, and Cookie touched on one specifically, but before I get to them let me ask a few more questions and don't take any of my questions the wrong way. Just trying to get a complete picture.

How long have you been lifting in general?

How long have you been squatting?

Do you or have you ever had any injuries (back/hips)?

Are you training specifically for American Football/Soccer?
Is your goal to actively compete in these, or are these just hobbies?

[westy]

Hi Cookie

I will check that program out as I`m not familiar with it but it does look like another program I`ve used going by the set up you`ve posted in the thread

I can post that up if you like as I have it on PDF?

First look makes me think that that is not really very high in volume but on another post you mention this:

Yeah on looking at it I suppose it's not high volume, just higher than I am used to.

Sprints should not be much of a problem but the depth jumps could be something that`s shocking the quads & increasing your overall volume to a point which your body is not used to.

Now killer question...are the depth jumps done with a jump after initial contact with the ground or do you "stick" the landing in a near bottom squat position & hold for a couple of seconds?

There is a difference & I`ve noticed that the term "depth jumps" has been bastardised from its original writings.

With the jumps I drop off a 12" box and jump straight after landing, no stick and pause. Hopefully I haven't bastardised the term?

I would have liked to have seen some CHO`s pre workout & I think the ratio for CHO-Pro post workout is 4-1 taken within the first 30 minutes & a solid meal within the next 120 minutes.

I notice that on the Pro-Recover the ratio of CHO-Pro is only 2:1 (48:24), what is the best way to add more carbs? Maybe a banana?
Also how long before the session should I have CHO? And again something like a piece of fruit?

Stretching after a workout is a very good idea because it will help with the removal of waste products from the muscles. I would also suggest 15-20 of very steady cardio on either a stationary bike or treadmill. Again to help with the removal of waste products.

Great i'll be sure to do those.

Is the pain a deep burning pain/sensation high up towards the top of the outer thigh near the hip & do you also feel this type of pain all down the outside of the quad & along the IT band region?

If yes (and it`s something I suffer with a lot) then I think you need to increase your work on hip/quad flexibility & foam rolling of the IT bands. This si something that crops up with myself when I have a couple of weeks off back squats or increase my weights or volume.

The pain was more like very bad stiffness which meant any form of movement or even isometric contraction was pretty painful. It was generally most painful in the area you describe plus along the inside of the quad at the bottom.

In that case i'll try what you suggest hopefully it will help.

have an epsom salt bath to help with blood circulation & get extra magnesium into your system.

Not sure exactly what this is i'll google and answer then!

Given your overall training volume I think you could get away with an increase in all of the nutrients, fats, CHO & protein. That diet looks a little sparse calorie wise for what you do.

Ok great as I can definitely eat more than that!

Hi Melas

I have been training for about 6 years (im 26 now), as per a lot of people I wasn't very knowledgeable at the start so probably training 'properly' for about 4 years.

I have been squatting for about 4 years, I spent the first 3 squatting to above parallel (because I was lazy and too proud to take the weight off a start again) and this year I started again from 40 kg squatting to 1" below parallel. I have now built that back up to 5 reps at 100kg.

Not great numbers I know and it's the main part of my training that I am unhappy with.

My lifts would be

Squat - 5 @ 100kg
Deadlift - 3 @ 165kg
Bench - 6 @ 100kg (yes it's better than my squat)
Pull Ups - Palms facing away 15 reps

So my squat is miles behind the others.

About 5 years ago I had a grade 2 hamstring tear in my left leg which took a long time to heal, its pretty much fine now I only feel it if I don't warm up. It's also a bit tighter than my right due to the scar tissue (apparently)

I play soccer for fun so not training for that.
I am training for American football and want my performance to improve in that but also training to 'look good'. Although I don't want to be all show no go.

That is a massive post to respond but hopefully I have answered all the questions.

Thanks again to both of you for your detailed help, even answering the questions has got me thinking.

Westy

[samurai69]

its "commercial epsom salts" as opposed to the epsom salts taken for a hangover

a good soak will pull out all the impurities ....great for bringing out bruising etc

[westy]

Great thanks Samurai

[Cookie]

I can post that up if you like as I have it on PDF?

That will be fine as long as it is allowed by the owner/writer of the program. Some copyrights don`t allow the sharing of certain information.

Yeah on looking at it I suppose it's not high volume, just higher than I am used to.

If your not used to the volume then yeah it will be a contributing factor to the excessive soreness. If the suggestions we`ve made are implemented then I don`t see why you`ll not be handle double that later in the future

With the jumps I drop off a 12" box and jump straight after landing, no stick and pause. Hopefully I haven't bastardised the term?

That is exactly what a depth jump should be. Unfortunately some people seem to have a habit of renaming/misnaming exercises

I notice that on the Pro-Recover the ratio of CHO-Pro is only 2:1 (48:24), what is the best way to add more carbs? Maybe a banana?
Also how long before the session should I have CHO? And again something like a piece of fruit?

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=3395

The pain was more like very bad stiffness which meant any form of movement or even isometric contraction was pretty painful. It was generally most painful in the area you describe plus along the inside of the quad at the bottom.

In that case i'll try what you suggest hopefully it will help.

Defo sounds like its taking some time for the IT bands to adjust. The foam rolling should help with this.

Thanks again to both of you for your detailed help, even answering the questions has got me thinking.

Westy

Your welcome